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Middle East 2010 - BBC Debate: Making Peace in the Middle East
Poziom:
Temat: Społeczeństwo i nauki społeczne
Welcome from me, Nik Gowing,
to Marrakech in Morocco.
Can face to face meetings between the
main leaders in the Middle East ever
achieve lasting security and peace right
across the region and beyond?
The momentum for high level negotiations
seems to be faltering despite the
commitment to progress engineered
by President Obama last month.
Gloom and distrust between the two
parties seem to be growing again.
So peace in the Middle East, are
the right people talking?
That’s our BBC World debate
from Marrakech.
Well, do join us here with delegates to the
World Economic Forum regional meeting
in Marrakech. We’re trying
to air Middle East peace
talks and peace issues in an impartial balanced
way for a BBC World debate like
this has highlighted both intensity
of feelings and emotions and the
difficulties of even getting people to
talk to each after the King of Morocco
refused to meet Israel’s President Shimon
Peres, Mr. Peres refused to attend this
conference. Other members
of the Israeli government
then declined our invitation
to this debate.
In fact, a number of people we approached
on all sides declined our invitation to
take part. They told us they
would not participate
or even join the audience if certain representatives
from another side took part.
But those who are here today are willing
to take part in this debate so thank you
to you for joining us for this
BBC World debate in Marrakech.
First, we’re joined by Dr. Husam Zomlot,
who is Executive Deputy Commissioner for
the Fatah Commission for International Relations,
representing the Palestinians
normally in Ramallah; also Dore Gold
by video link from Jerusalem,
former ambassador to the United Nations,
currently president of the Jerusalem
Center for Public Affairs, he’s held
official positions in a number of
right-of-center Israeli governments,
serving prime ministers Ariel Sharon
and Benjamin Netanyahu, he’s been a member
of Israeli negotiating teams on many issues
with the Palestinians and Arab states;
and Khalid Abdulla-Janahi, a businessman and
banker from the Gulf, Co-Chair of the
Global Agenda Regional Council on the
Middle East, and described the
Arab-Israeli conflict as the
“mother of all problems.”
But our discussion must also involve a lot
of other people as well, many of you
here in the audience in Marrakech, this
includes young people from several
countries in the region brought together
by the British Council as part of the
Changemaker Program. It selects
and gathers young activists,
volunteers, and social entrepreneurs
interested in shaping the future.
So, what might it take to have successful
negotiations and ultimately an agreement
that could lead to Middle East
peace that is our debate.
And to help us assess the answers, I'm
joined her by Professor Dan Shapiro,
founder and director of the International
Negotiation Program at Harvard University
in the United States. You analyze
why negotiations work and why
they fail. You provide
advice to groups
and governments around the world. You're
going to watch and listen to our
debate and then give your assessment
of what you hear at the end.
Dan Shapiro, our question is “Are the
right people talking?” In your
experience, what kinds of people or
personalities offer the chances for
negotiations to succeed? Well first,
do the people even want to
talk? There seems to be
a growing resentment,
growing frustration in the air, a growing
disbelief in negotiation will actually go
anywhere and yet at the same time what
is the alternative to negotiating?
Is it increased deprivation
for the Palestinians?
Is it increased risk of insecurity
for the Israelis?
Is it the increase likelihood
of a massive regional war?
These are not very attractive alternative
and makes negotiation much
more attractive in itself.
And yet at the same are the
right people talking?
To some degree that’s the problem, not the
answer, is that everybody is talking.
Who is actually listening? At a core,
this is a deeply emotional
conflict, resentment, frustration, humiliation,
people want to feel heard
and recognized and that helps to actually
have the problem solving happen,
these are two major challenges facing the
region right now around negotiation.
Well let's get your view of what you hear
in the next few minutes, right up until
the end of the debate to see how you might
be changing or modifying that view
certainly when it comes
to the Middle East.
Let me go now to Husam Zomlot from
the Fatah position in Ramallah.
Are the right people talking to try and
achieve a Middle East peace deal?
Nik, yes and no. Yes from the
Palestinian side, I believe
President Mahmoud Abbas has been in the
forefront of the peace camp, has been
very clear from day one that his entire
career has dealt on achieving
a negotiated settlement for that purpose,
he has led a campaign all of his life,
whereby today it has cultivated and what is
happening in the West Bank in terms of
institution building, in terms of the
security situation, in terms of the
growth we are witnessing, and in terms of
this momentum that you talk about in your
introduction, the international momentum,
it is based primarily on the fact that
there is a Palestinian leadership that is
absolutely and adamantly pursuing on the
path of peace. Unfortunately,
at the Israeli side we
see nothing but the lack of a vision vis-à-vis
the future, we see much more
petty politics in terms of keeping the
coalition at the expense of the vision
that you, the international community,
and the Palestinians are envisioning.
Let’s go to Jerusalem to Dore Gold.
Are the right people talking at the
moment to achieve, in the end,
a lasting Middle East peace?
Well what determines who
are the right people?
Is it the democratic will of the people
of Israel and of the Palestinians?
Since 1993 when Israel and the PLO signed
the Oslo Accords, we have gone through 6
Israeli prime ministers, 3 US presidents,
and 2 PLO chairmen and no one
reached a final peace.
Let’s admit these are very
difficult issues.
But you know something? I am hopeful
that we can reach a final
peace because I don’t allow the failures
of the past to prohibit us from thinking
out of the box in new ways. Let’s
get a view from business
and outside the political field
from Khalid Abdulla-Janahi.
What's your view? Well I think
I go along with Dan.
Everybody’s talking but are the
right people being listened to?
I think that is much more important, people
are not listening to the views of
the street and when you look at it
– Who do you mean by “the street”?
The street I mean the 300 million people
in the Arab side and 6 million in the
Israeli side, that is the street
as far as I'm concerned.
Are you telling us that the negotiators,
those negotiating are not listening to
“the street” at the moment? Let’s
be – I mean because when we talk
about Palestinians, it’s
a specific issue itself.
Who needs to be talking then? Well,
I mean, from a Palestinian
perspective, whether we like it or not,
I think – I heard about the democratic
perspective there, I mean as far as I'm
concerned 2006 was the elections time
and somebody was elected whether we
like it or not what's called Hamas.
Hamas still represent the Palestinians
as far as the elections are concerned.
There might be constitutional issues but I
look at it from the street perspective,
still Hamas is there. Why Hamas
in excluded from the
discussions on this issue which is an
important factor for the Palestinian
side. Right, let’s move
on because a lot of you
have views on many of the issues that we’re
trying to raise in this debate here
in Marrakech. Let’s go to
Karim Sadjadpour from the
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace,
with this issue picking up on what
we’ve just heard about, Hamas.
Building on Khalid’s point,
Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran have seemingly become
too influential to exclude from the peace
process. On the other hand,
trying to include them
seems akin to inviting vegetarians to a
barbeque because they disagree with the
fundamental premise of
a two-state solution.
So how do we reconcile
this? Husam Zomlot?
Number one, I don’t think Hamas disagrees
with a two-state solution.
We have been hearing Masha’Allah and all the
Hamas leadership really endorsing the
two-state solution. Number two,
they also have said that Abu
Mazen… represents all Palestinians and he
negotiates number one, we need to be
included, if not included we want to
offer any agreement to a referendum.
We do not have that problem, that
problem has to behind us.
The problem we have is in Israel
and the problem is very simple.
By the way, these are not difficult
issues, these are very simple,
straightforward – But should
Hamas be involved or not in
your view in Ramallah? Hamas should
be involved once we sort all
of our issues, yes indeed.
The question is not about Hamas, Hamas is
not the obstacle right now vis-à-vis
the pace process. The obstacle
is the lack of an Israeli
recognition of the very basic
Palestinian political right.
All right, Dore Gold, here you’ve heard three
loud voices suggesting that Hamas,
given their successive elections, should be
represented if there's going to be any
chance of moving forward
on Middle East peace.
Your view? You know, the problem
is Hamas does not
even adhere to the criteria that were
established by the quartet just a few
years ago.
Hamas does not recognize Israel, Hamas
does not accept passed agreements,
and Hamas will not renounce violence. They
believe in Mukawama, they are the
symbol of Mukawama, of resistance,
armed resistance.
And therefore it sounds very liberal to
have everybody get together in a room
and talk but what are you
going to talk about?
Had Hamas been willing to accept these
three basic conditions of the quartet:
the United States, the United Nations, the
European Union, and Russia had laid
down before Hamas that would have opened
up tremendous amounts of European
assistance to the Gaza Strip, to the Hamas
regime but they adhere to their
Jihadi ideology, let’s be realistic? Let
me press you on that historical –
And I dare forward to bring them to the
table would just not produce any
progress, it would create
a much bigger problem.
We know very well the Israeli concerns
about this but let’s talk about what
would happen if Hamas did
enter the discussions.
Do you believe there would be a much greater
possibility of forward momentum?
Look, it’s hard for some people in the
west to fathom this fact but there are
organizations in the Middle East that
call for the destruction of Israel,
that call for the establishment of a new
caliphate to replace the states of the
Middle East, to replace President Mubarak
in Egypt, to replace King Abdullah of
Jordan, to replace all the regimes.
This you can't negotiate with.
It would be great if you could be conclusive
but you have the read the
Hamas charter, you have to see what Hamas
leaders are saying, this is about as
sensible as bringing Osama Bin Laden
to the table with President Obama,
it doesn’t work and it won't work. Khalid
Abdulla-Janahi, you're shaking
your head. Well I mean talking
about democratic
process, either we accept democratic
process or we don’t.
If the people choose who they want to be represented
by, they are the one who have
been chosen. Now we can't allow
these people to have
time, I mean, the morning after the day before,
we always remember, I don’t know
if it was the 23rd or 26th of January
2006, suddenly everybody stopped
and everybody was basically
hammering the Palestinians.
We were in the business and we were encouraged
to do business – I can see
some ex-ministers or current ministers
who were encouraged to do business in
Palestine at that time and we were working
on it and suddenly we were told
by congressmen and it was at a dinner in
Davos “Hey, anybody who puts money into
that place will be in deep trouble.” So you're
giving basically the international
community, the local community, the business
community the wrong aspect here.
One place you want democracy, there was corruption
issues, everything was raised
at that time, the democracy was called
for and we had the democratic process,
we didn’t see the democratic
process going through.
Back to what Dore said that there are
institutions in the Middle East that
would want to see the destruction of the
city of Israel, yes, Dore, there are,
but many of them are in Israel, many of these
institutions are Israeli institutions,
among them the settler community, the
settler movement, the Usha Council,
who have celebrated the end of the moratorium,
who have shot the first shot
on the current existing peace process, and
who have been absolutely adamant in
murdering any possibility
for us to move forward.
Facts are there very striking. The
matter of fact is, as we stand
today, there is no Israeli leadership that
is coming out very clearly saying
that “We recognize the Palestinians did
as the Palestinians have recognized us
pre-1967 borders,” and what we have
right now in the West Bank.
And the last thing is the settlers yesterday
in a major Nablus village
attacked the farmers, burning 660.
This is a daily incident.
We are – Husam Zomlot, I did
ask a question though
about Hezbollah and Iran, about
widening it still further.
As far as we are concerned -- Palestinians,
Iran is not our main
conflict, the conflict is very well
defined, it is with Israel, it is
a matter of foreign occupation,
occupying Arab land.
Iran does not occupy Arab land. We
have no direct conflict with Iran
whatsoever. Dore Gold, the
idea of going even beyond
Hamas to Hezbollah and Iran.
I think the main problem we face
in the Middle East is Iran.
Iran is a country which is projecting its
involvement all across the region,
not just in Lebanon where Iranian officers
are now in the chain of command of
Hezbollah but also Hamas. Hamas is
today a satellite of Iran which
is of course why Egypt is very concerned
with what is going on in the Gaza Strip
and not just Israel. I'm actually
very surprised that our
friend from Bahrain does not recognize
the magnitude of the Iranian threat.
The spokesman for Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
has said that Bahrain should be
a province of Iran and I heard the Palestinian
spokesman mention that Arab
land is not occupied by Iran. Well go
tell that to Abu Dhabi in Dubai
about the islands in the Gulf.
Dore Gold I – Iranian presence
in Iraq is massive so I
think right now we are dealing with a region
which is very different from the
region that we knew back
in 1991 or in 1993.
Are you saying it’s inconceivable that Iran
could ever or should ever be brought
into these negotiations to facilitate
and to broaden them?
That’s what the point
was from the floor.
Yes, that sounds again like a very progressive
and very welcoming idea but
in reality who is the Iranian leadership
today that is making territorial demands
on the Arab world? It is
the Iranian leadership
and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
who speak about wiping Israel
off map or wiping Israel off
the pages of history.
So it’s like the negotiation with Hamas,
what are you going to talk about?
And when the Iranians make these statements
about wiping Israel off the
map – let me finish my sentence – they put
these sentences on billboards which
they attach to a Shahab-3 missile
that can strike Tel Aviv.
So what are we going to talk about, the
size of the missile that they’ll attack
with? Let’s be realistic,
let’s build peace
between Israelis and Arabs and ignore
those who are destroying peace
and destroying us. Well Mr. Obama,
when he came to Cairo,
he extended his hand to
speak to the Iranians.
I mean, this is the president of the United
States extending his hand to speak
to the Iranians, everything is on the table,
and he said it, I mean, my English
is not that good but I think I heard
that, everything is on the table for
discussion. So is this is the
president of the United
States who is supposed to be moderator
between the two parties, the Arabs
and the Israelis, and he says that so who
am I to say that’s a bad thing to do.
Let’s get a sense of the next generation.
Let’s go to Yara Al-Wazir form
Palestine.
You're 17.
You're one of the Changemakers. What's
your view about this current
discussion when it affects your future?
Well I think we have to recognize that
although people are talking in fact, the
mediators of the negotiations who are
meant to be neutral are not in fact
neutral and they are very biased.
And therefore any peace deal cannot be reached
if the negotiators themselves are
biased. Now what are your
emotions about this
issue at the moment? Well in the
future I really do hope that
a peace deal can be reached because I
would love to go back to my country,
I would love to have the option
of visiting my country.
What is your reaction when you hear that
-- Dore Gold, this reaction and this
hope? Do you believe that
it’s well founded?
You're asking me whether the hope
of peace is well founded.
When we hear from a young
Palestinian like that?
I believe, as I said in my opening
remarks, that we can overcome our
differences but it requires a compromise,
a compromise by the Palestinians and
a compromise by Israel. It can't
be made by people coming into
the room saying “I will only accept all
of my demands or I have achieved
nothing.” I believe the possibility of compromise
exists, there is compromise in
a number of these subjects, but it’s going
to take persistence and hard work.
I don’t think the issue is the problem of
the intermediaries, the diplomats from
the west. The best peace
that we can reach is
a peace that we reach between each other.
We hear a lot of talk about peace. We
want peace, peace, peace, but in
reality things are really different,
Nik. What do you mean by that?
I mean by that that for the last 20 years,
while we have been discussing the
end of Israel’s occupation, we have been discussing
the dismantling of all illegal
settlements they have troubled. What
I mean by that that we have been
experiencing a game of deceit, a game of
deceit that only a negotiated settlement
would deliver the two-state solution
and in the end what we get is more
settlements. A game of deceit
when we negotiate on the
table dignity, freedom, and the end of occupation
and under the table occupation
is being deepened and strengthened. This
is a game of deceit and I believe
the Palestinians have got – to the absolute
point of no return – that this
game is over, we are no longer entrusted
in such a game, the path ahead of us
is very clear cut. Karim Sadjadpour,
you asked about whether
this could be reconciled, you likened it
to inviting vegetarians to a barbeque
when it comes to the kind of radical
thinking that’s needed.
Can you see a new way of doing it? Do
you believe the right people are
talking or not?
Well let me go back to an assertion raised
by Dore Gold that Iran is the
primary threat to -- Israel is the
primary threat to stability in the
region. And what we’ve seen
empirically is that
Iran’s ideology, its soft power resonates
the loudest when people feel most angry
and outraged and alienated in the region,
specifically the 2006 Lebanon War when
Israel was bombing Lebanon and more
recently the 2009 Gaza War.
So I think indeed Iran is the chief threat
to Israel which I don’t deny that
Israeli belief. The best way
to drain the swamp, if you
will, and weaken Iran’s soft power is in
fact by making forward progress on the
peace process with the Palestinians. So
I think that is something that Israel
hasn’t really made a true
effort to do it seems.
Let me pick up this issue of has Israel
made sacrifices for peace.
For example, in the Gaza Strip Israel unilaterally
withdrew from Gaza and our
expectation was that if we pull out our
army, if we pull out 9000 settlers,
the situation should get quieter,
it should stabilize.
What happened? The number
of rocket attacks, if you
compared 2005 to 2006, you'll find
a 500% increase in rocket attacks.
You suddenly find – and this is important
for those who don’t believe
Iran is a problem – that Hamas leaves
the Gaza Strip, the members of Hamas,
the operatives, through the tunnels, under
Raphia, fly to Tehran where they're
trained by the revolutionary guards who
also supply the Grad rockets that hit
Ashkelon, Ashdod, Be’er Sheva. Therefore
Iran is very much a part of
this conflict but it is a factor which
is making the conflict worse.
Only by pulling around a way from this conflict
can perhaps we begin to bridge
differences in these sensitive
areas of security.
One thing the Israeli government is asking
and it is repeatedly saying to its
friends “We cannot allow the West Bank situation
to replicate what happened in
Gaza where we pulled out completely and all
we got was a 500% increase in rocket
fire. Husam Zomlot, the
view from Fatah.
Yes, I'm glad he’s mentioning Gaza, another
very full fledged example of what
is happening. You pulled out
of Gaza, Dore; you did
not even coordinate with
the Palestine Authority.
Mr. -- was there in Gaza, he was able and
our colleagues were able to talk over.
You left it absolutely empty, you planned
what happened, Gaza has been brought
under siege since 1991, the disconnect
is not Palestinian it’s physically an
Israeli, you have prepared for the current
situation and now we sit and say
“Look at Gaza, it’s far away, it’s
disconnected, there is disunity,
we cannot talk to them.” Before Iran,
Mr. Gold, you spoke about Iraq.
Iraq was the biggest threat, Iraq is standing
between us and peace then we
talk of Iraq off the map. Now we
talk about Iran, no, no, no,
no, no, before that you were talking about
the lack of Palestinian leadership,
can you do that now? Can you
talk of Abu Mazen who is not
a man of peace? Before that
you were talking about
security, can you claim that the security
in the West Bank now is the best that
Israel has witnessed in
its history so far?
You talk about the economic and the
institutional capability, that the
Palestinians are unable
to govern themselves.
Go and read the World Bank report three
weeks ago saying that the Palestinians
are absolutely ready not only to govern
themselves but to be one of the most
vivid states in the region.
All these are excuses.
These are pretexts because you are not ready
to proceed on the path that we all
know what it is, you are not ready to
pull out of the occupied territories
period.
Right, let me go -- Yasmin Mohammed Galal.
I want to say something. I
want it to go a step back.
I think we need to ask ourselves why the Palestinians
have voted for Hamas and why
the Israelis have voted for Likud. I think
this is because there's a lot of
fear and stereotypes about both
sides in both regions.
I'm hopeful that next time when the Palestinians
and the Israelis get to know
each other, the Palestinians will really
want to make peace and the Israelis that
really want to make peace spread awareness,
get to know each other,
next elections we are not electing these
kind of people again, the extremists.
And I see from here people accusing each
other and if these are the people
negotiating then we do have a
problem. The gentleman there.
Unfortunately we don’t have alternatives.
People in the Arab world are always restricted.
I want to ask one question for the politicians
in Palestine and the Arab
world. Why do not the politicians
in the Arab
world and Palestine be brave and
say “We are in a deadlock.
We cannot make anything
for the peace process.
We are in a failure.” Say
one thing “We are losers.”
Khalid Abdulla-Janahi, is that the kind
of view that you were representing when
you talked about the hundreds of millions
on the street, as you put it, at every
level of social strata. Well, I'm
not a politician but that’s
only one step. Your business,
would you like to step in
and start to – No I won't
and I’ll be a dead duck.
But I think – coming to a point I think
who’s talking and who should be talking
is very, very important. That does
not represent a very critical
view at all. That’s the
frustration, that’s the
emotional aspect of the frustration which
is down and that’s what I was saying at
the beginning, that is what we’ve
got to work – that’s a time bomb.
This is the modern world problem. That’s
a time bomb that we have to be
aware of in 10/20 years down the road,
things – the way that things are going
today. I think the young
lady, Palestinian young
lady, when she raised “I would hope to
go back,” and said the people who are
basically moderating the peace because
you have peace between two parties
and reality check is the following, you have
a weak party and you have a strong party
and the problem is the moderator today,
whether we like it or not,
actually whatever the strong party does or
wants, they are with them, they are not on the
other side, they prove that to be the point,
I mean, that’s the fault within us
and the Arabs. When I have the
congress corridors of the
United States where the decision taking happens,
the Israelis have basically over
150 lobbyists. The Arabs, 22
Arab countries, they have
6 lobbyists, that’s all,
I mean, that’s an issue.
In Brussels they have
over 160 lobbyists.
I think we don’t have – except
more than a dozen lobbyists.
These are important issues that – bottom
up – we have to think about it from the
Arab street perspective to push it through
because that – a better day for
me and the more important is people and
we all have to live is the humanity
aspect. I mean we
bash each other.
When we talk about sacrifices, we talk
on the other side compromises.
I mean the more land you take and the
more powerful you are, then the
compromise on the other side
becomes much more difficult.
So you're getting to the point which I think
I'm a good accountant, I think at
the end of the day, is it a five or two-state
solution or not, the way things
are going today? With all
what is expected from
a perspective of compromise, compromise –
That accusation that really you're not
admitting that everything is deadlocked,
is that your view?
Is that your perception and analysis at the
moment, that everything is deadlocked
or not? Perhaps if that
is the analysis then
leaders would have to resign
or do something else.
What is the analysis? The role
of the leaders is to pursue
every door possible. The analysis
is the current situation as
it stands with the current Israeli government
we have absolutely no way to
believe that we are about to
witness a breakthrough.
Is it deadlocked? As far as the
current Israeli government,
it’s a big deadlock. It’s the
biggest deadlock we have
witnessed. This is a government
that is interested
in its own survival at the expense of the
survival of their own people, of the
future of their own people. All right,
Dore Gold, again you heard
that view from Egypt, particularly this
suspicion that politicians on all sides
simply cannot cope with what
he described as deadlock4.
No, I think the deadlock can be overcome.
You also have to take into account that
Israel and the Palestinians
have negotiated before.
I know much of the global focus lately
has been on the issue of settlements.
But you know something? While Mr.
Olmert was negotiating with
Abu Mazen, with Mahmoud Abbas, Israel was
building its communities in the West Bank
and the Palestinians were building in
their communities in the West Bank.
We have a territorial dispute where we
pour concrete or they pour concrete,
it’s not going to determine the borders.
We had settlements in the Gaza Strip.
We pulled out 9000 people, so I would hope
that people would stop using this
issue to say that negotiations
are hopeless.
I could also come up with demands
of the Palestinian side.
Why don’t they close the Jenin refugee
camp and move everybody out into nice
housing? Abu Mazen is
not going to do that.
He can't do that. That will
undermine his internal
position because of the sensitivity
of that issue.
We understand that. I think good
negotiation means you don’t
undermine the status of the other
side, of its leadership.
You don’t try and weaken them,
you try and strengthen me.
We are always seeking to do that. So again,
I want to repeat, I think that
we have differences that can be bridged
but our approach in this television
program should not be to dig up the dirt
on the other side so we make an
impression on the BBC audience. What
we should be doing is trying to be
forward thinking, understanding the limitations
of the other side but trying
to come up to areas where we can bridge our
differences, that’s what's required,
not simply doing these recitals of what
the other side didn’t do and how it
violated agreements. I’ve
got my list too.
Let’s take two or three more interventions
from the floor please.
Fatah has not had elections and the PA
has not had elections for a very long
time and it’s a big question mark to the
Middle East whether in fact Fatah can
represent the will of the Palestinian
people given that there have not been
elections for a very long time.
What is the credibility for Fatah to negotiate
on behalf of the Palestinian
people? Is it going to persuade
the people who
elected Hamas in Gaza that they are able
to credibly represent their wishes?
Dore Gold, do you have a view similar to
the question we’ve just heard from Human
Rights Watch, that there are questions
of the legitimacy of the leadership in
Ramallah? Is that a
view in Jerusalem?
It is not for Israel to pick Palestinian
leaders and it is not up for
Palestinians, it’s not up to them
to pick Israeli leaders.
Our peoples pick our leaders
and our leaders negotiate.
Now there has been a view among some of
the speakers today that we should speak
to Hamas. I mean, do you
again know what you are
dealing with? I just want to
make sure you understand
what's in the Hamas covenant.
One sentence.
Israel will exist and will continue to
exist until Islam will obliterate it.
Hamas speakers in Gaza like… talked about..,
it means the holocaust of the
Jews, that’s the language coming out
of the Hamas leadership today.
So what are we supposed to speak about?
I think our job is to work with Mahmoud
Abbas, with the Palestinian Authority
leadership to try and solve this conflict,
not to look in the past but to
look to the future.
Dr. Zomlot. Should I really
remind you of what Ovadia
Yosef said two months ago? He used
the occasion of a religious
convention to pray and to ask God,
his God not my God, that all the
Palestinians, chiefly among them the
Palestinian president, will perish,
and that sits on the top of the second most
significant political movement in Israel.
These are the details. You shouldn’t
really discuss it here,
this person here, this person there. We
can sit until tomorrow to quote some
of your contributions. Khalid Abdulla-Janahi,
can I just ask you
what's your view in response to that
question from Human Rights Watch --
Yeah, I think actually I just heard the
answer which was a good answer -- that
the Palestinian people choose their leaders
and the Israeli people choose
their leaders. So we cannot
say then once we choose the
leaders and the leaders are supposed to
be negotiating, that’s what I heard the
leaders should negotiate in behalf of them,
that if they are chosen to be Hamas
or Fatah or Zeta or X or Y, they are the
chosen basic leaders for those people.
So if they are the chosen ones, and just following
the logic is that we then – the
leaders negotiate in behalf of the people
then we have to sit and talk to Hamas or
Fatah or Zeta or X or Y. But I think
the current viewpoint I just
want to raise two things here. It’s
an important thing to not to forget
the street, the street is a very important
factor, but there are two sides
again, there are people talking, they
need to be involved much more.
I mean the Arab League has to get much more
involved, they have got their peace
initiative in front of the world, they're
sitting there, it’s been sitting there
for 8 years now, I think they need to be
more proactive rather than just always
just going through the United States because
from what that young lady said
the United States cannot be an easy –
because it’s going always with the
strength rather than going with the weak
so they cannot be taken there so we have
to be – the Arabs have to push more
forward with Arab peace initiative.
Right, let’s get a few more views please.
Peace sometimes begins with small
gestures, ping-pong diplomacy. I’d
be curious to know from Mr.
Zomlot and Mr. Gold what sort of small gesture
would Palestinians be willing to make
that they think could raise confidence
among Israelis and similarly for Mr.
Gold, what kind of small gesture could
Israel make to raise confidence among
Palestinians? I’ll tell you
what is the Israeli – in
the last three weeks, what have
been the Israeli gestures.
Number one, an oath that would come against
the – an oath for the Jewish,
by the Christians and by the Muslims
in the city of Israel.
Number two, a law within the [inaudible 33:54]
that says that any issue that has
to do with Jerusalem and… would have to
be under a referendum, another obstacle
Israel elected two weeks
ago. And guess what?
Now we are back to talk about
the Jewish system –
Right, let me ask Dore Gold. Dore
Gold, that question on gestures
quickly. While we freeze
and have frozen the
growth of Jewish communities, Israeli
settlements in the West Bank, we are
willing to be as supportive as possible
for the building of a new Palestinian
city called Roabi right next to Ramallah
and it requires making concessions about
moving through air and sea, the Israeli government
has indicated a willingness to
do that, that’s tangible, that’s housing,
that helps Palestinians move forward
and Israel’s willing to do that.
But I have one request of the
Palestinian side and indeed of many
of the Arab representatives.
We are willing to recognize the right of
the Palestinian people to a nation state
of their own. Can somebody
please say to me that they
are willing to recognize the right of the
Jewish people to a nation state of their
own? And if they can't
say it, explain to me why.
David Rosen. While the conflict
is a territorial
conflict, religion is often
used and abused.
And indeed in attempts to bring about
a successful peaceful resolution
and negotiations in the past, we saw extremists
on both sides try to torpedo
it whether it was Islamic fanatics or in
the name of their religion trying to
bring the peace process down or whether it
was… or the assassin of Yitzhak Rabin
and we’ve seen how religion can be abused
but nevertheless at the same time there
has been no attempt to try to engage
constructive religious views.
There is today a Council of Religious
Institutions of the Holy Land that
represents a Chief Rabbinate, the Islamic
authorities, the Patriarchs of the Holy
Land. Are you engaging
them to ensure the
religion is part of the solution
rather than part of the problem?
Let me go to Mr. Masri, a leading industrialist
from the Palestinian side.
I wish the Israelis will come to their
senses and to think they should be the
right people to talk to the Palestinians
who are dying for peace and dying to see
peace. All my life I’ve
been working for peace
but I haven't seen it from
the Israeli side.
Well as Mr. Masri knows, Israel – this Israeli
government removed dozens of road
blocks that were necessary
for our security concerns.
People forget that just a few years ago
we had suicide bombers coming out of
Jenin, Nablus, into the heart of Tel
Aviv, the heart of Jerusalem.
Our children were afraid to walk in the
streets because of these mujahidin that
were killing themselves and killing
10, 12 Israelis each time.
We removed those road blocks, we took
risks for the Palestinian economy,
and now the Palestinian economy – you're
right – is vastly improving.
It has very strong GNP per capita growth
and we want that to happen but frankly,
we do have our differences, we do believe
a compromise is necessary.
Resolution 242 never said Israel has
to go back to the [inaudible 37:10],
you know that, we know that, we
have to negotiate borders.
So if some parts of the West Bank are
retained by Israel where we have
settlement blocks. If we work
out land swaps, don’t tell us
that the occupation is continuing.
Let me ask Husam Zomlot --
-- self government so I don’t know how you
make self government consistent with
the issue of – One
point, please Mr.
Zomlot. Two points, very quickly.
No, Mr. Gold, only you know that.
We the Palestinians and with us the entire
world know that the borders are
clear cut set based on United
Nations Resolutions.
Those are the borders of
the 5th of June, 1967.
This consensus includes the United States
of America and that’s why you don’t have
one foreign mission, one embassy with
Jerusalem, let alone Jerusalem.
You are lonely and isolated in that
position, number one. Number
two, the issue –
Why are borders the issue for negotiation
according to Oslo which you signed.
Because you want my borders – I tell you,
I tell you, I didn’t interrupt you,
Mr. Gold but I’ll tell you why, I’ll tell
you why, I’ll tell you why, I’ll tell you
why, if you hear me, I’ll tell you why.
Because you want my border to be
a function of your settlements and colonies
and the function of your security,
you don’t want it to be
a function of my right.
You have this concept that mine has to
be the main battlefield whereby your
dictates will determine upon
the final status issues.
You have tried it for 20 years, you have
imprisoned the Palestinian founder,
Yasser Arafat, you have invaded Gaza, you
have bombarded people, you have killed
1400 civilians, it doesn’t work
Mr. Gold. It does not work.
Khalid Abdulla-Janahi. The Arabs
did not fire a single rocket
and Hamas did not fire a single rocket.
Khalid Abdulla-Janahi, do you feel that
there is any grounds of optimism, that
the right people are talking at the
moment or not? Well if you're
going to loose optimism,
as I said at the beginning, people
are the most important thing.
There are human beings that
we’re talking about.
I, from a Palestinian perspective, I think
before we blame the world at large
we should basically look
at ourselves too.
I mean I see – what I hear today
is a good thing to hear.
We’ve got to look at ourselves, we’ve
done our best, we blame our leaders,
blame the Arab world before we blame the
world because though I am blaming the
world for what's going on
is not a good thing.
We’ve got to best fight it harder. That
point from Rabbi David Rosen about
role of religion, in other words,
extending it even further.
Both of you are not in agreement.
First of all, Dore Gold.
I think Rabbi Rosen’s point is
excellent and very important.
I think ultimately the identities of the
people involved in the negotiations are
rooted in religious identities.
The people coming from the Palestinian
side are, for the most part, Moslems
and aware of Islamic tradition. Those
who come from the Israeli side are
steeped also in a Jewish background and
therefore I believe a meeting point of
religious leaders would be very important
to fight against the corruption of
religion, the distortion of religion. I
remind you that in – I'm speaking to
a group in Morocco. Several
centuries ago Moroccan Jews
and Moroccan Moslems would leave Morocco
and cross North Africa together.
The Moslems would go to Mecca for Hajj;
the Jews would go for a pilgrimage to
Jerusalem. We have a tradition
of co-existing,
living together, we have had difficult times
in our history but there have also
been bright sides. When the
Jews left Spain under the
inquisition and found a home in the Ottoman
Empire, many came to the land of
Israel… to live. There is
a basis for us looking to
a past to construct a new future but we
need an ideology of real co-existence
and not an ideology of who’s to blame and
retributions and not looking forward.
All right, Husam Zomlot, you nodded
agreement as well with Rabbi Rosen.
Absolutely, absolutely. Rabbi, religion
could be a double-edged
sword, unfortunately it has been the
sharp one cutting all of us so far,
I agree with you, it has to be the other
side of the sword and the other side
Judaism is a religion that I was raised
by my grandfather to look up to.
He always told me “Eat with a Jew, go out
with a Jew, live with a Jew.” It’s
a religion that has been – and
it has the 10 commandments.
I just arrived from the Jewish community
in the US and the Democrats are the ones
who supported Martin Luther King, are the
ones who are with the civil rights,
the problem is when it comes to Israel all
this changes, all this is transformed
into confusion. I want to
see what is Jewish in
preventing the people of Gaza from
having nets to go fishing?
What is Jewish of preventing a woman
delivering her baby on a checkpoint?
This is not Jewish. I think Judaism
is free of all these
accusations. You’re asking
“Are the right people
talking?” I'm not going to comment about
the gentleman in the TV but I would
comment about our brother in Palestine,
how are you expecting two brothers to
make peace when their cousins – when they
cannot make peace between each other?
You can't. Hamas and Fatah
have to make peace
between each other and then they
can go and negotiate with power.
It’s a very legitimate and
profound at the moment.
Not only is it possible, Nik, but it is
an absolute necessity for Palestine.
Is it achievable? It’s achievable
and I have good news for
you that our colleagues now are doing a good
job, there is good news that things
are very close to a breakthrough. I think
Palestinians know that this is
a top priority. What
is blocking it?
Very logistical details.
So far I believe we are very
close to resolving this.
We are waiting for the Hamas leadership
to come along and sign the Egyptian
paper. We have been talking
to them in various
capitals in the Arab world. The most
important thing is that there
is a popular pressure underneath all the
politicians that this is a necessity,
there is a Fatah decision that this is
a top priority, there is a Palestinian
leader who knows that this has to be
achieved as soon as possible and I
believe Hamas has a long way to go but
there has been some achievements.
The bottom line is there is the siege
on Gaza, there is the siege on Gaza,
there is of course – and by the way you have
among you here people who are in the lead
of trying to reach Palestinian
reconciliation.
I tell you, I just want to tell you one thing:
there is a Palestinian homework we
need to do one of which chiefly
is the reconciliation.
But I just want to point I am from Gaza,
I was born in Gaza, I want to point out
one thing, the separation – We’re
going to loose the satellite.
No, no, no, no, the separation is not
only Palestinian, it’s an Israeli.
Since 1991, I was prevented from leaving
Gaza to go to the West Bank.
Israel has induced this Palestinian... This
is a fact. We have to talk about it.
Right, let me ask Dore Gold. You
just heard that assessment from
Ramallah, do you believe that that would
change significantly the prospects if –
and he held his fingers up, about two centimeters
apart, saying it’s that close
between Hamas and Fatah. Well again,
if Hamas is an organization
dedicated to the obliteration of Israel
which it is in its original charter,
which it is in the current statements of
Hamas leaders, then is that going to
bring us any closer to an Israeli-Palestinian
agreement?
I'm afraid not. I know it
makes some people in this
audience feel good but until Hamas
transforms itself and is no longer Hamas,
is no longer the Palestinian branch of
the Moslem brotherhood of the… then this
will not move negotiations forward,
it will only set them
back. Right.
We’ve heard your position from Jerusalem,
we’ve heard your position as well from
Ramallah, let me now turn, at the end of our
discussion – as I said we would right
at the beginning, to Professor
Dan Shapiro.
Professor Shapiro, you are involved in
international negotiation, you run
a program at Harvard University, you’ve heard
the emotions and the points put by
all sides in this debate,
has your view changed?
I’ve learned from this conversation
two big points.
First of all, clearly there's
emotion in this room.
I’d imagine this comes across
very easily on TV as well.
You can hear the anger.
You can hear the fear.
You can hear the feelings of
injustice, the despair.
The question is how do
you then move forward.
And here’s my second point
observing the situation.
This is structured as a debate here and a
debate immediately pits us versus them,
Palestinian versus Israeli, and I think
that becomes very dangerous ultimately
because that ultimately turns the
situation into an us/them,
win/loose situation. If negotiation
is the track forward,
and as I said earlier I believe it is given
the analysis of the alternatives, how do
you shift it so that it is everyone working
side by side dealing with the
symmetries, dealing with the feelings of
injustice, how do you move it in that
direction? I think that
is the challenge.
I'm not one who can judge whether that
will happen, that ultimately is in the
hands of the people of the Middle East.
But from what you’ve heard, can you see
a middle ground? Can you see
room for compromise which
will achieve something which both sides,
all sides can be comfortable with?
It will take work. I believe
it’s possible.
I think the question is who are the key
actors that will be involved in that
process, yes of course the political
figures need to be involved in that
process, at the same time the business
leaders need to be involved in that
process in their own way, the people on the
ground, their voices need to heard as
was suggested earlier in that process.
I think the “who” is not just a simple
categorical question of three or four
political leaders, the “who” is the
entire region that needs to work towards
processes to help to organize toward
joint work, positive outcome. Professor
Dan Shapiro thank you very much
indeed, an expert there on negotiation, bringing
to an end our debate on “Are the
right people talking in the Middle East
peace process?” From me, Nik Gowing,
here in Marrakech in Morocco,
thanks for joining us.
